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	<title>Comments on: Typemock Patents- you&#8217;re missing the point</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/</link>
	<description>Creating better software</description>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-49900</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:06:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/#comment-49900</guid>
		<description>How stupid are you!?

That (PCT/IL2007/001152 ) is not a patent!
It&#039;s a patent APPLICATION!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How stupid are you!?</p>
<p>That (PCT/IL2007/001152 ) is not a patent!<br />
It&#8217;s a patent APPLICATION!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-49831</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/#comment-49831</guid>
		<description>I think there are several issues here that get mixed up.

First of all, I am sure that Typemock has rational reasons to register for a patent. It gives them some sense of security and probably a sense of accomplishment as well. The patent system has examined their claims and found them innovative enough. They have probably spent a lot of money on the patent. Hardly anybody manages to get it done under $50,000. Most of that is patent lawyer fees to create the gibberish that is in the patent application.

Unfortunately the sense of security is false. Any large company can fabricate their own patent covering essentially the same &quot;invention&quot;, and can thus easily invade the space that Typemock thinks is theirs. As others have said, large companies have very big portfolios of patents, and in software, you are almost certain to infringe on some of them. The bigger portfolio wins.

There is some protection against a successful startup that wants to occupy the same niche in the market, but the patent doesn&#039;t really offer much if you are already successful and ahead of the competition. It works best if you are failing on the market and your competitor is doing well. Then you can torpedo their success. Mmm, nice business model...

The fact of the matter is that software patents generally just increase the randomness of the outcome and small companies are generally much better off without them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there are several issues here that get mixed up.</p>
<p>First of all, I am sure that Typemock has rational reasons to register for a patent. It gives them some sense of security and probably a sense of accomplishment as well. The patent system has examined their claims and found them innovative enough. They have probably spent a lot of money on the patent. Hardly anybody manages to get it done under $50,000. Most of that is patent lawyer fees to create the gibberish that is in the patent application.</p>
<p>Unfortunately the sense of security is false. Any large company can fabricate their own patent covering essentially the same &#8220;invention&#8221;, and can thus easily invade the space that Typemock thinks is theirs. As others have said, large companies have very big portfolios of patents, and in software, you are almost certain to infringe on some of them. The bigger portfolio wins.</p>
<p>There is some protection against a successful startup that wants to occupy the same niche in the market, but the patent doesn&#8217;t really offer much if you are already successful and ahead of the competition. It works best if you are failing on the market and your competitor is doing well. Then you can torpedo their success. Mmm, nice business model&#8230;</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is that software patents generally just increase the randomness of the outcome and small companies are generally much better off without them.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnD</title>
		<link>http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-49829</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:31:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/#comment-49829</guid>
		<description>Perhaps this is what Eli meant, the patent discussion is not the point, or focus of Typemock or this blog. 
Helping developers unit test and have less bugs is the point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps this is what Eli meant, the patent discussion is not the point, or focus of Typemock or this blog.<br />
Helping developers unit test and have less bugs is the point.</p>
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		<title>By: Sin Trenton</title>
		<link>http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-49828</link>
		<dc:creator>Sin Trenton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:28:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/#comment-49828</guid>
		<description>@JohnD @Xin Name

Empirically and historically, OlofB is actually correct when it comes to the *fat cat* argument. In jurisdictions with common law, esp with regards to patent law and IP issues, the ones with the largest wallet has a tendency to win.

You both had one thing in common that you used aa a reason: It protects you as a customer.
The problem is that this can very well be a false sense of security, since the protection you invoke, that Typemock&#039;s patent is providing, has yet to be upheld--or overturned--in any court against a larger corporation and thus tested visavi other, already existing patents.
That&#039;s the second point of OlofB&#039;s arguments, I think, which I have to agree with.
This is not about customer security, nor protection of unique concepts. It is all about--so far untried--legalese.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@JohnD @Xin Name</p>
<p>Empirically and historically, OlofB is actually correct when it comes to the *fat cat* argument. In jurisdictions with common law, esp with regards to patent law and IP issues, the ones with the largest wallet has a tendency to win.</p>
<p>You both had one thing in common that you used aa a reason: It protects you as a customer.<br />
The problem is that this can very well be a false sense of security, since the protection you invoke, that Typemock&#8217;s patent is providing, has yet to be upheld&#8211;or overturned&#8211;in any court against a larger corporation and thus tested visavi other, already existing patents.<br />
That&#8217;s the second point of OlofB&#8217;s arguments, I think, which I have to agree with.<br />
This is not about customer security, nor protection of unique concepts. It is all about&#8211;so far untried&#8211;legalese.</p>
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		<title>By: OlofB</title>
		<link>http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-49826</link>
		<dc:creator>OlofB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/#comment-49826</guid>
		<description>It helps since it brings the discussion to the table. These things must be discussed openly in order to gain opinion and raise awareness of the big economic problems the world has to deal with because of patent systems.

Just imagine what would happen to the world of literature if certain authors were able to &quot;patent intrigues&quot; or &quot;scenery&quot; in their creations. And then other writers had to either pay a fee to that author, or risc prosecution! How&#039;s that for slowing things down..?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It helps since it brings the discussion to the table. These things must be discussed openly in order to gain opinion and raise awareness of the big economic problems the world has to deal with because of patent systems.</p>
<p>Just imagine what would happen to the world of literature if certain authors were able to &#8220;patent intrigues&#8221; or &#8220;scenery&#8221; in their creations. And then other writers had to either pay a fee to that author, or risc prosecution! How&#8217;s that for slowing things down..?</p>
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		<title>By: Xin Name</title>
		<link>http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-49821</link>
		<dc:creator>Xin Name</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/#comment-49821</guid>
		<description>@OlofB.
The reality is that the patent system exists, and cannot be ignored. 
How does bashing a small kid in the block help close down the patent system?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@OlofB.<br />
The reality is that the patent system exists, and cannot be ignored.<br />
How does bashing a small kid in the block help close down the patent system?</p>
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		<title>By: OlofB</title>
		<link>http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-49819</link>
		<dc:creator>OlofB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/#comment-49819</guid>
		<description>@JohnD.

I&#039;m saying patents are a tool foremostly for lawyers and big companies. TypeMock would not stand a chance in court if Microsoft wanted to put them down.

Without a patent system, the worst a big company can do is copy good ideas - and that would not be so bad for technological advance, would it?

Let me give an example. Say TypeMock does really well commercially. Microsoft notices them. How does TypeMock know they are not breaking any software patent Microsoft &quot;owns&quot;? Patent portfolios function as sledge hammers. But only big companies have the resources to wield such a heavy weapon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@JohnD.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m saying patents are a tool foremostly for lawyers and big companies. TypeMock would not stand a chance in court if Microsoft wanted to put them down.</p>
<p>Without a patent system, the worst a big company can do is copy good ideas &#8211; and that would not be so bad for technological advance, would it?</p>
<p>Let me give an example. Say TypeMock does really well commercially. Microsoft notices them. How does TypeMock know they are not breaking any software patent Microsoft &#8220;owns&#8221;? Patent portfolios function as sledge hammers. But only big companies have the resources to wield such a heavy weapon.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnD</title>
		<link>http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-49813</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:49:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/#comment-49813</guid>
		<description>So you are saying that Typemock is at risk, and that is sounds like a good idea to protect themselves, with a patent for example. 
So why are you so surprised? wouldn&#039;t you do the same?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So you are saying that Typemock is at risk, and that is sounds like a good idea to protect themselves, with a patent for example.<br />
So why are you so surprised? wouldn&#8217;t you do the same?</p>
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		<title>By: OlofB</title>
		<link>http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-49812</link>
		<dc:creator>OlofB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:41:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/#comment-49812</guid>
		<description>@JohnD.

Being grown up with software development I have &quot;built-in&quot; anxiety regarding software patents, since it has put up road blocks at a number of times - the GIF-thing, Microsofts attack against the Linux world (which is all about FUD - they never filed IIRC).

I know some on patent systems and copyright law, yes, but it also a very complex system (intentionally complex in my mind - complexity favors big cats, see my previous comment). Also, the law on these topics differ in small but devious ways in EU/US/specific countries.

I don&#039;t think OSS projects are generally at risc because of this patent, since they are not strictly commercial. However, the line between donation/support-based business models and &quot;software as a product&quot; is fuzzy and I cannot say at this moment if there is a risc for OSS TDD projects due to TypeMocks patents. (What OSS projects often have is &quot;proof&quot; of being out there for long enough - open source archives with time stamps back in time. So it is relatively easy to check whether a certain algorithm was implemented  before this patent was filed.)

As to small TDD companies, for example, TypeMock might be at risc, since Microsoft are developing a competing piece of software (MSTest). I say TypeMock is at risc and not Microsoft, because I am guessing Microsoft is by far the bigger of the two, and &quot;own&quot; the rights to a whole plethora of patents - legalese documents that would need a horde of lawyers to read and interpret. How does TypeMock know Microsoft does _not_ have a patent that conflicts with this patent..?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@JohnD.</p>
<p>Being grown up with software development I have &#8220;built-in&#8221; anxiety regarding software patents, since it has put up road blocks at a number of times &#8211; the GIF-thing, Microsofts attack against the Linux world (which is all about FUD &#8211; they never filed IIRC).</p>
<p>I know some on patent systems and copyright law, yes, but it also a very complex system (intentionally complex in my mind &#8211; complexity favors big cats, see my previous comment). Also, the law on these topics differ in small but devious ways in EU/US/specific countries.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think OSS projects are generally at risc because of this patent, since they are not strictly commercial. However, the line between donation/support-based business models and &#8220;software as a product&#8221; is fuzzy and I cannot say at this moment if there is a risc for OSS TDD projects due to TypeMocks patents. (What OSS projects often have is &#8220;proof&#8221; of being out there for long enough &#8211; open source archives with time stamps back in time. So it is relatively easy to check whether a certain algorithm was implemented  before this patent was filed.)</p>
<p>As to small TDD companies, for example, TypeMock might be at risc, since Microsoft are developing a competing piece of software (MSTest). I say TypeMock is at risc and not Microsoft, because I am guessing Microsoft is by far the bigger of the two, and &#8220;own&#8221; the rights to a whole plethora of patents &#8211; legalese documents that would need a horde of lawyers to read and interpret. How does TypeMock know Microsoft does _not_ have a patent that conflicts with this patent..?</p>
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		<title>By: JohnD</title>
		<link>http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/comment-page-1/#comment-49810</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elilopian.com/2010/02/24/typemock-patents-youre-missing-the-point/#comment-49810</guid>
		<description>@OlofB. You seem to know a lot about the patent system and copyright laws. I don&#039;t really know how that system works, and I am not sure that you really do. I have talked to a lawyer and it is not so simple, if it was so, the OSS project would not really need to put GPL or any other licensing system up.
 
What I do know is that if Typemock doesn&#039;t write the patent another company will, and put me, the end user, at risk, so I have a huge Fear, Uncertainty and Distrust (FUD) in any company that won&#039;t protect me, and can&#039;t prove that it is not selling someone elses work, and doesn&#039;t have patents.

As for the smaller companies - who exactly are you talking about? What small companies are innovation in TDD?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@OlofB. You seem to know a lot about the patent system and copyright laws. I don&#8217;t really know how that system works, and I am not sure that you really do. I have talked to a lawyer and it is not so simple, if it was so, the OSS project would not really need to put GPL or any other licensing system up.</p>
<p>What I do know is that if Typemock doesn&#8217;t write the patent another company will, and put me, the end user, at risk, so I have a huge Fear, Uncertainty and Distrust (FUD) in any company that won&#8217;t protect me, and can&#8217;t prove that it is not selling someone elses work, and doesn&#8217;t have patents.</p>
<p>As for the smaller companies &#8211; who exactly are you talking about? What small companies are innovation in TDD?</p>
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